Tompion disc
Used for regulation

 

Thank you

 

Can we see more of the watch?

 

Of course.
I have just received it today and it has gained 3 mins in 3 hours.
Not sure what do to as it was listed as keeping good time!
It is dated as 1785

 

Hard to really see clearly but it doesn't look as though the chain is positioned correctly on the fusee.
If I'm correct then this could just be the result of the rough and tumble of going through the post. However well it is packed very difficult to protect it entirely from shocks, and they are quite delicate. If it was unwound and the chain not tensioned correctly it could jump out of the track on the cone. It looks as though it is positioned too low, below the proper track.
Hard to see from the angle of the picture and I could be quite wrong.
I would certainly have a chat with the seller and see what he or she suggests as a way forward.
I wouldn't run it until you can establish exactly what is going on.

 

This is the sellers reply:-

"The watch is 240 years old to have it even running after all this time is wonderful. As to time keeping Verge watches were never good time keepers if a Verge watch can keep within 30 to 40 minutes a day its doing well"

 

 

I was hoping to wear it at work for 8 hours with a loss/gain of 2 minutes.
Is this unreasonable?
Thank you.

 

A good quality one when new would probably have been within a few minutes a day. Some contemporary writers suggested 1-2 minutes a day as perfectly achievable, although I suspect that may have been a tad exaggerated.
Unfortunately any that survive now have been repaired umpteen times, and probably by people of widely varying skill. They are very tricky to set up really well, and particularly to eliminate big positional variations.
Having said all that if it's gaining a minute an hour I would find that unacceptable if it's supposed to have been serviced.
I only have one currently but that keeps time to about 10 minutes a day as received from the seller with no claims to have serviced it.
I know that one has a few issues with wear, so I am sure that can be improved upon once I get around to looking at it.
I can see that some people would be happy with it running at all, and might take the view that accurate timekeeping is too great an expectation. But for the seller to claim that within 40 minutes a day is "keeping good time" is a bit much IMO.
It will be interesting to see what views others have, and how theirs perform.

 

If you are happy that the fusee is set up correctly then my next step would be to measure the error dial up, dial down and pendant up. If it is fairly consistent then that would suggest the movement is ok, in which case I would be looking at the hairspring.
The spring on these is very short and comparatively stiff compared to a modern watch. They typically have very low amplitude. The hairspring needs to be set up and shaped just so for it to run accurately. Any error has a much greater effect than in a modern design, and could conceivably account for the error you have.

 

Thank you so much for sharing your experience.
Unfortunately I am a not savvy enough to this test this watch so I guess I will have to have it serviced or just live with it.
I live in the UK and have seen good reviews for WE Clark and sons?

 

I do all my own stuff, so can't recommend a repairer, but I'm sure there will be other members who can. You just need someone who speciaises in these as they are very different to a modern watch.

 

Have a read of this, I think you might find it interesting. There are a lot of discussions around this, and most seem to see a single figure minutes per day error as perfectly achievable.
Having said that Clarke have an article where they declare an accuracy of 15minutes a day to be "remarkable".
Also attach a chart from another source, this is actually from an article discussing the problems associated with pairing of spring and fusee, another possible issue, but the results are interesting.

Antique watch timekeeping accuracy - Time Worn Watches

Antique watch accuracy is important to collectors. If it doesn’t keep accurate time, it is basically useless as a practical timepiece.

www.timewornwatches.co.uk

 

Thank you 👍🏻

 

For what it's worth my experience of having had a few of these over the years is that I would aim for 5 minutes or better as being acceptable. I think the best one I had managed a consistent 3 minutes.
Problems I found with timekeeping were usually either the hairspring or wear on the flags of the staff.
This was from buying ones to learn how to repair them, and reading all the articles I could find. I am a self taught amateur, so I have no doubt a professional who has repaired hundreds of them could do much better.
I believe @nevenbekriev is very knowledgeable about these, it would be interesting to hear his thoughts.

 

I missed that, agree wearing it on a regular basis is going to potentially cause problems. Firstly the cases aren't exactly air tight, so dust and fibres from any clothing are going to get inside it. This is much more of an issue now with essentially plastic fabrics shedding microscopic fibres all over the place. Secondly the movement design has a fair bit of inherent friction, so it will wear.
Not a problem in the day, when there were repairers everywhere who could fix it quite cheaply, more so now.
I am all for wearing them, and wear a pocket watch quite often. But I do tend to restrict it to special occasions.
The pricing doesn't surprise me. These tend to be well outside the realms of a normal service, dismantle, clean, reassemble and regulate, job done.
It will almost certainly need some repairs and very careful adjustment of the escapement. This often involves partial dismantling, a tweak here and there then put it back together and observe the results.
I have spent many hours on each one I have done to get the best I could out of it.

 

Thanks for all your great answers.
Sorry I did not make myself clearer about wearing this timepiece.
It would be for two consecutive days every approximately every 6 weeks as I rotate my vintage watches. 😀

 

Sounds like fun. I find the what are you wearing threads are a great excuse to get out different watches.

 

Just throwing it out here but could I slow the watch down via the mentioned tompion disc and if yes, in which direction?
Thank you

 

For sure this kind of watches can be regulated to work in limits of +/- 3 min/day. But, this is when they work on the table top face up only. In pocket they will perform worse and yes, 15 min is good result. But, to work correctly, the watch must have very small radial free play in balance and crown wheel bearings and the balance to be well (dynamic) poised. Isochronism is another serious problem here - the spring torque has to be correctly equalized by the fusee. No one can tell what the condition of the OP's watch is only by the pictures here.
OP, try to turn the square shaft on the silver dial with small numbers counter clockwise. If the regulator can move more in this direction, it will slow the watch. Another possible reason that may be for the watch to work faster is 'shallow' escapement engagement.

 

This is what you will typically have underneath. In the circle you can see two small pins below the moving plate. The hairspring fits between these. When you turn the regulator the rack moves, changing the effective length of the spring as the pins slide along it.
I would be very careful and only adjust it a tiny amount initially and see what effect it has. The reason I say that is because if it hasn't been serviced and checked the spring can become stuck to the pins, rather than sliding between them. If this is the case moving it could damage the spring as it can bunch up behind the pins rather than sliding through them. If this happens it will actually run even faster. Another possibility is that the spring is not correctly installed, so it is not actually between the pins at all, but inside them. This would also make it run fast. In this case the regulator will have little or no effect.
If moving the adjuster a small amount does slow it then try a bit more, but I think an error of a minute an hour is not going to be fixed by the regulator, I'm afraid there is something more to it.

 

You guys have been brilliant and I am very grateful.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Digesting these posts, I am out of my league here so I will have the watch professionally serviced when funds permit.
In the meantime, it is a beautiful timepiece and I am going to be the custodian of it for the next generation.

 

Not sure how much you know about the actual set up of these. You might find this interesting.
The animation in the link relates to a clock, but shows the way it operates.
Then you have the whole train associated with the escapement.
And an image of the sort of wear you can find on the flags, which leads to the shallow engagement @nevenbekriev was referring to. If it is really bad then the only answer is to make a new one, easy peasy .... Not!

The Verge Escapement – Redfern Animation

The verge escapement was developed in the 13th century and made mechanical clocks possible. It consists of two pallets set at approximately right angles to each other which alternately stop and release the escape wheel, one tooth at a time, allowing it to rotate in a regular and controlled...

redfernanimation.com

 

Yesterday I set all my pocket watches running for the WRUW oldies thread. Early this morning I took another picture which shows how they’ve kept time over 20 hours.

The two on the right are lever movements, never been serviced to my knowledge and both still show the right time, near enough. The other four are fusee movements from the 1870s-90s. All have been professionally serviced/restored. As you can see, they’re all slow.

 

Fusees are one instance where I would always try and retain the original spring, although of course on a watch that old it is unlikely to be "the original".
Really problematic trying to get a new spring to match the fusee. Often a case of trying different ones until you find something close, very time consuming.

 

I have been nerdy enough to use a loupe to see exactly when the minute hand meets the mark on the ring, then plot the results against a radio quartz clock. Do it every 20 minutes and you get an idea of what is going on.
Will give you an idea if it might be related to a mismatch between fusee and spring, or simply needs regulation or maybe the hairspring re pinning a tad shorter.
A mismatch will typically result in the graph going up and down, sometimes by a lot at the beginning and end particularly.
Bit like a time graph though, don't do it with something that runs well and keeps good time, you will just find things to worry about that you didn't even know were there🙂

 

Prompted by this thread I dug mine out. It is a Charles Stone of Liverpool, hallmarked Birmingham 1803. Silver paired case by William Hutton of Sheffield.
The movement itself is in nice condition apart from the dial which is badly damaged. I have quite a collection of period dials including several convex ones of the correct size and similar date, so that can be replaced.
It also needs some work on the case. The outer has a few dents and the pendant is badly damaged. I have a small collection of silver spoons, bought for pennies at car boots which I use as a source of silver for repairs. One of these will in due course donate the silver to make a new pendant.
For these reasons it has remained in my to do box since buying it some time ago.
The movement is very clean, so clearly has had some attention. I was drawn to it because I rather like the face in the engraving. It also has a rather unusual regulator. It has a plain blued disc in lieu of the normal numbered Tompion dial, but the rack also incorporates a pointer. It looked pretty "honest" to me, not having been messed about with.
When I gave it a run briefly upon buying it my triage notes show it gained 11 minutes in 24 hours, and the regulator was reluctant to turn.
Anyway, having done a little tinkering and got the regulator freed up and working smoothly, in the last 24 hours it has gained 3m 30s, so quite chuffed with that. There is a little more side shake in the staff than I would like, so once I can give it a full going over I dare say that may improve a bit more.
This was dial up. So far been running for about 4 hours dial down and looks as though it will be very similar. I expect it to lose a little pendant up, but we shall see.