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Fake v Homage - whats best, or worse?

4K views 44 replies 24 participants last post by  William_Wilson 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Now before you all start, this question is actually based on an article in an American based watch magazine, called 'Wristwatch' that I pick up here in Thailand (no relation to the annual catalogue of the same name). This magazine is hard to find on-line, or it is for me at least, although I have managed that, I couldn't find the article on-line, so copied it from the authors linkedin page.

He is basically saying that homages are more damaging than fakes to the industry in the long run and gives his reasons for stating this.

I'm not going to sit on the fence here. I don't like blatant homages, but if other's are happy with them, that's fine, albeit, I don't get the appeal.

Here's the article:


The Critical Importance of Fakes to Swiss Watch Marketing



Nov 5, 2015


A Rolex with an automatic movement, stainless case and cyclops eye bezel for less than $300 sure seems tempting, and who would know, really? It would just be a little secret between you, the online merchant and your ego. Besides, it's just a placeholder until the real one is in the budget, right?

This internal dialogue illustrates why the market for fake watches is actually a critical part of the Swiss brand building machine. Contrary to the belief that consciously purchased fakes are bad for the market, I argue that they are actually a necessary component of the ecosystem and, with new technologies, may emerge as the vanguard of a new market hybrid: the home-brewed mashup fake.

Fakes have had an allure for as long as people have coveted things they can't afford, and reasonable copies have been available. The problem with a fake, however, is the knowledge of it what it is and what it represents, regardless of how deceptive or well-crafted the example. No matter how hard you squint at that fake Rolex, Omega or Brietling, it will never have the warm, smooth feel, particular glint in the light or well-turned finishing of the original. And as long as it serves a placeholder purpose, it may not matter.

Unlike homage products from manufacturers like Ocean7 and Helson, consciously purchased fakes actually move a brand forward. Homage products that look like the real deal, but aren't, eventually demand an explanation. How many times can an owner say "well, it looks like the Omega Ploprof and it has a Swiss movement and a Chinese case, and it's a really good watch, I just can't afford the real thing right now." The justification gets old. For the price of one homage watch, a user can pick a decent fake and put the balance towards a real watch purchase. An homage product doesn't motivate a buyer to upgrade, but to justify. With the right markings, a fake begs no explanation and demands replacement with the original. It create a gnawing aspiration, and this translates into brand building and ultimately a bigger market for Swiss watches.

But the age of online fakes may be moving to the garage. As 3D printers become more sophisticated, a consumer will be able to download plans for a dial and a case and brew their own brand name fake. A Valjoux 7750, the mainstay of the Swiss watch industry, is available on Ebay for less than $400. In the right hands these new fakes could be assembled with a more personalized touch, which means that the same customization that has been alive and well in the auto industry for generations, may be coming to the watch market.

Want an original Shelby Cobra, but don't have a million plus lying around? There's a kit for that; just drop in the engine and interior of your choice, and screw on a nameplate. Soon we may find home-brewed fake watch developers putting their own twist on brand names and developing hybrid mashups that will actually bear a personal value, as they enter the realm of statement. What would a gun-metal ceramic Rolex Submariner case with an Omega Speedmaster dial look like? The home brewer will be able to craft this Romega Speedmariner, and maybe, one day, actually purchase both originals.

While it may seem a hard pill to swallow, consciously purchased fakes keep desires for originals very much alive. And if anything, we're entering the golden age of fakery. This truly begs the question…are we moving beyond the originals into a no man's land of unique, personalized mashups? New technologies and reverence for originals will marginalize and ultimately hurt the homage manufacturers. Why buy their semi knockoffs, that look more like a fuzzy Xerox than the crisp original, when you can make one of your own, the way you really want it?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-importance-fakes-swiss-watch-marketing-steve-lundin
 
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#2 ·
Fakes I might not have a good opinion on (especially since most are of bad quality) but I don't understand why some people are against "homages".

There will be many similarities between a number of 4-5 maybe 10 cars yet no one calls one of them a homage.

Many watches out there are not intended to be copycats of more expensive and popular watches and when you think about it, sometimes when you want to design a watch that has certain characteristics it's pretty hard not to have it resemble at least one other watch that has been made throughout history.

Watches have been made for over a hundred years and it can be pretty hard to make one watch stand out from the rest completely.
 
#3 ·
Before i start i very rarely get involved in this stuff but you may have caught me at just the right moment for a rant

I think the homage hatred and comparisons to fakes is fuelled by insecurity of buying an expensive watch and the desperate need to justify that you made the right decision (maybe you cant afford what you have?)

The comparison to fakes is laughable as they are not trying to fool buyers into purchasing a watch thinking they are getting the 'genuine article' it has a different brand name FFS, homages arent illegally sold/produced and the selling of homages is in no way linked to criminal activity!

where do you draw the line on homages? There are plenty of well known respected manufacturers that are manufacturing watches with similar cases/bracelets/hands/bezels are they all homages apart from the original? does the watch world have to stop using those designs forever?

I dont feel the need to bleat on about how the quality of some homages are unbelievable value for money and ridicule the high end manufacturers for charging what they do and the service they provide against cost? Perhaps some things are best left unsaid (like opinions conparing homages to fakes)

They are watches, if people are so insecure about average Joe owning a watch that shares a similar design then perhaps they should sell it because they are obviously only after a 'statement of wealth' not a timepiece

This type of thread will go down the same predictable road, some owners that always bang the homage/fake drum will be out in force....i think its best i leave this thread well alone after this :)
 
#4 ·
Guaranteed to end up in arguments. I have seen falling out about this many times recently so why would this be any different just because there is an article. People wont even talk about the article once someone comes along and says this brand is mickey mouse and that brand is fake and the other brand is copy. Someone with that brand will be insulted and have a go back.
 
#5 ·
Fake watches have been known to destroy the second-hand values of certain models of watches (think some of the Tag models, and the Tank Francais was affected for a long while)

Although many knowingly buy fake watches it is inevitable that sometimes they are passed off as the real thing.

These are the distinguishing differences of a fake that tries to fool others into the belief it is the real thing, and a homage which is modelled in the style of but obviously not the real thing if scrutinized.
 
#9 ·
Fake watches have been known to destroy the second-hand values of certain models of watches (think some of the Tag models, and the Tank Francais was affected for a long while)

Although many knowingly buy fake watches it is inevitable that sometimes they are passed off as the real thing.
Those are probably the two most important effects of fakes, that actually affect watch collectors, more so than any links to ' organised crime'.

I don't think anyone who is a collector would have any serious objections to homages, we all know that successful designs in the watch industry are copied mercilessly, some more successfully than others. What we now think of as a Diver's watch originated with Blancpain Fifty Fathom and it's now it's the standard, beating many other 'looks' that other manufacturers like Rolex and Omega were initially coming up with. Now that 'look' is everywhere as it is practical for the job it does..

Probably one of the nicest homages I've seen this week is Bruce's OWC, which is a great looking watch but no-one is going to try to pass it off as the original Tudor, so Tudor's name isn't damaged and neither are their sales. Those who want and can afford a Tudor aren't going to go for the OWC and those who buy the OWC are going to be very happy with a really nice watch.

Fakes are a completely different matter, they do get bought and then passed off as the real thing and can badly damage a brand's image. You only have to look at what happened to Tissot over the huge volume of fake PRS 200s that hit the market. It did their sales a lot of damage and isn't easy for a manufacturer to get over....

So yes, there is a huge difference and we as those who purport to have a real interest in watches should be standing up for honest watches, and that includes homages....
 
#6 ·
Well being a pretty simple person :laugh: , it's a pretty simple matter in my mind - fake's bad, homage ok. We all know what a fake is and we all know what a homage is so I won't bother reiterating that point, but I personally can't see what's wrong with buying a watch that is made to look like something you would love to own but can't afford/ justify the cost of, luckily homage's at least allow you to own something of similar design :yes: If however the watch in question is saying it is something it is not, whether that be passing itself off as another brand or purporting to be certified in someway but isn't then in my mind that has crossed a line and is wrong :nono:
 
#7 ·
It's also worth mentioning that a Rolex Submariner does not equate a 200$ homage in any way (except for sentimental reasons). No one will ever say, your Rolex is alright but my japanese homage that copied yours is the bomb!

I actually never saw and never knew what a homage watch before joining watch forums. I just saw watches, and sometimes there would be similarities between them (in dial, in the hands design, etc.). I think this whole homage was made by some people that just don't like the fact that there are cheap(er) watches out there that look similar (not identical) to more expensive ones. As I've said earlier, a homage might look similar to a popular watch, but, usually, the quality is different so no point in getting upset about it.
 
#10 ·
Interesting article and an interesting parallel drawn between car and watch customising. The former has been around for years. Back in the day Tribsa and Norbsa motor bikes were fashioned from two manufacturers products. This is neither fakery nor homage. It's making a new product.

Simply put in my view fakery sets out to mislead and affects brand reputation. Homages are just that , a nod to the original design with another risking brand reputation. Fakes bad , homages acceptable.
 
#11 · (Edited by Moderator)
I won't add to what's been said, but I will comment that, reading the article and checking out the author - Steve Lundin - it sounds like he's trying to be clever and controversial. It's actually a stupid piece of logic - mere showing off how cool he is - with no attention to the real purpose of fakes, which is to milk someone of their money by cheating them. Enough already.

"Critical importance" my arse.
 
#14 ·
with no attention to the real purpose of fakes, which is to milk someone of their money by cheating them. Enough already.
If these fakes are being passed off as the genuine article then that would be cheating the buyer. I would have thought the majority of `fakes' are sold openly as just that although they may call them `replicas'. Some of the websites selling fakes are based in the UK and Europe and it should be possible to close them down if the manufacturers or trading standards wanted to.

As for `Homages' I am in two minds. If a watch is based on another design then that seems fine but if it is a direct copy in every detail except for the name then it starts to feel closer to the `fake' market. There must be a limited number of styles available for cases, hands, dials etc and so you may well end up with different brands that look identical but to me that is differnt to making a direct copy.
 
#12 ·
Well, I studied music and I will use a musical analogy to explain my thoughts. Composers like Bach did not come out of the womb with any understanding of harmony, chord progressions and orchestration. Neither did they have instant access to classical music via CDs, MP3s or for that matter regular concerts either. Classical music really was a magical treat largely exclusive to the more wealthy, a good comparison today with Rolex, also a treat beyond your average persons means. For composers to learn and practice their skills they would spend days and weeks reading other composers scores and copying the manuscripts by hand to gain an understanding of their techniques. The learning process involved the continual copying of texts. Then when it came to composing original works, the composers would have obviously drawn a huge amount of inspiration from the artists they initially spent years copying. As the composers own skills evolve, they then develop their own style and become more unique.

Rolex (the equivalent of a seminal music composer), is worth copying. It's the ultimate compliment that so many other watch manufacturers hone their skills by copying the designs of Rolex. Surely this just human nature and how we as a race make progression. Learning by copying, practice what you've learnt then put apply your own unique adaption to create something new or original.

In the same way that not everyone who learnt by copying Bach then progressed on to doing something original themselves, and let's face it not everyone can be Beethoven or Mozart, not everyone who copies Rolex is going to then create an original watch which stands on its own feet without being a copy of some sort. But every now and then there will be an exceptional pupil who out achieves the teacher.

So long as a homage isn't being labelled itself as another brand and being a fake which is deceitful, we should just accept them from an anthropological viewpoint as part of a natural evolutionary process. That's life, maybe we should just embrace it. If you don't like them personally, fine but what's the problem with someone else feeling different.
 
#13 ·
I don't mind proper homages, those that take some styling cues from a watch that has come before it, the orange PloProf hand for example, I don't like fakes but I don't like 'homage' watches that appear identical to the watch they are trying to be either bar the branding. They have been made to emulate the real thing so the 'intention to deceive' is the same as a fake but its the right side of the law, the only difference is they don't break trademark law.

Its only a personal opinion but for me:

Fake- Branded copy - Bad

Homage- takes some design cue from another watch - OK

Copy- visually very close or to all intents and purposes identical to a watch thats gone before it bar the branding. - Dubious but commercially acceptable
 
#21 ·
I don't mind proper homages, those that take some styling cues from a watch that has come before it, the orange PloProf hand for example, I don't like fakes but I don't like 'homage' watches that appear identical to the watch they are trying to be either bar the branding. They have been made to emulate the real thing so the 'intention to deceive' is the same as a fake but its the right side of the law, the only difference is they don't break trademark law.

Its only a personal opinion but for me:

Fake- Branded copy - Bad

Homage- takes some design cue from another watch - OK

Copy- visually very close or to all intents and purposes identical to a watch thats gone before it bar the branding. - Dubious but commercially acceptable
How can a watch with different branding have the 'intention to decieve' ?

For sale my Rolex Submariner 'Steinhart' special edition, to you just £10k :)

I own three watches you could class as homages, one is made by the same company as the original the other two are modern versions of watches long out of production, yes i could buy an expensive vintage version that id be worried about actually using but id rather not

if people think its the real thing then who cares, i doubt anyone would notice if they were the iriginals
 
#15 ·
So is this a fake or homage, no "posh" makers name or anything, you would have to know what it "copied" to know what it is. Clue 1938. No way could i ever find or afford a "real" one...
P1010429_zpsbd0321c9.jpg
 
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#16 ·
I was given a fake automatic Rolex sub, some months ago, dare I say that it looks good on the wrist and works well too. The chap who gave it me has real Rolex watches and bought it for a bit of fun when abroad. I have no intention of ever buying a real Rolex so this one has not lost any sales for Rolex. Having said that if cheap copies were made of a priduct I was selling, I would not be happy! I wonder how much effort Rolex and other brands put in to shutting down the fakers?
 
G
#19 · (Edited)
over analysed clap trap from an over opinionated prat

there was no mention of the crime of faking another manufacturers products, there was also no mention of the other crimes funded and encouraged by the massive fake watch industry world wide

IMO you cant have one acceptable crime and the rest not, its like saying house breaking is ok because it keeps the Police in a Job, i dont believe there can ever be justification for a crime, make one acceptable and excuses will start for others

i have one watch that could be classed as a Homage, i just like it, but make no mistake..the manufacturing of these " Homages" probably are same factories as the fakes.

IMO the western world is responsible for fakes, if there was no market there would be no fakes, problem is though..the majority of buyers are ignorant of the facts, most wouldn't know a fake if it hit them in the face, ignorance is not a crime although the Law says: ignorance is no defence in Law :wacko:

here's is a couple of clocks from the 1600's...

one is English, one is Japanese

it doesnt matter which is which, the point is they are very similar and could be classed as "Homages"

220px_Lanternclock.jpg


818723_max.jpg


in my opinion all time pieces. clocks or wrist watches are "Homages"

it is inevitable they are going to look similar or the same

i think Steve Lundin's "self serving" drivel has done legitimate watch business's as disservice.....all IMHHO of course
 
#24 ·
I doubt he can substantiate his claim, but he states that those who buy fakes aspire to the real thing and that desire ultimately helps, specifically, the Swiss watch industry, so are an evil that some good comes out of. Homage owners, on the other hand, largely stick with the homage, thus do not help the Swiss watch industry.

It's a different perspective, that's all.

xellos66 was right - kudos. :thumbsup:
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
iS a Kia Sportage or a Hyundai Santa Fe a copy, fake, or a homage to a Mitsubishi Shogun ar are they BOTH Homages to the original Land Rover which might have ben a fake or copy of the Willys Jeep - - (where does the LADA Cossack fit into all that ) :toot:
 
#29 ·
Homage is when the copy is with different name than the original and/ or with slight different design, but stated as inspired one.

Fake is when the copy wears the name of the original and it's with exact or similar design, or sometimes even fictious design.

Anyway, fakes are bought by people who have no scruples , homages are for people who are ashamed to wear fakes but still want a watch with a specific design.

My 2c.

Dim
 
#30 ·
Anyway, fakes are bought by people who have no scruples , homages are for people who are ashamed to wear fakes but still want a watch with a specific design.

Dim
Let's face it, most fakes are bought by holiday makers from the 'looky looky' men on the Costa Del Sol in Spain and other places....be it watches, sunglasses whatever, and what's on offer seems to change as quickly as the market dictates. Last year it was all Micheal Korrs stuff....watches, bags, purses etc. Who knows what it'll be this year.
 
#31 ·
I was in Hua Hin all week, which is a tourist destination and although it's low season here, I saw three stalls selling fake watches - Rolex, Omega, Panerai, that sort of stuff, with a few fashion brands. All were very popular!
 
#32 ·
Mmm... Let's think about this.

Lets use something other than watches to emphasise the point.

You can buy a Kit Kat. Yum you know exactly what's inside.

You can buy a Lidl Break Time. It looks like a Kit Kat but is a bit cheaper. And let's be honest is still pretty yummy.

You can buy a Kit Kat of a dodgy chap in the pub car park. It was awful cheap and has Kit Kat on the wrapper. But it was actually made using ingredients that were not approved for human consumption by illegally trafficked workers in a kitchen that is filthy.

Buy real, buy homage, don't buy fakes, don't support criminals.
 
G
#35 ·
Mmm... Let's think about this.

Lets use something other than watches to emphasise the point.

You can buy a Kit Kat. Yum you know exactly what's inside.

You can buy a Lidl Break Time. It looks like a Kit Kat but is a bit cheaper. And let's be honest is still pretty yummy.

You can buy a Kit Kat of a dodgy chap in the pub car park. It was awful cheap and has Kit Kat on the wrapper. But it was actually made using ingredients that were not approved for human consumption by illegally trafficked workers in a kitchen that is filthy.

Buy real, buy homage, don't buy fakes, don't support criminals.
a few years back there was a 40ft container from China open by trading standards or the like, it was packed to the roof with fake Colgate tooth paste, not only was it fake it was also found to be full of dangerous chemicals. Fakers [ yes F.A.K.E.R.S ] have no morals at all :angry:
 
#41 ·
Fakes watch wears are aspiring to get the real thing? Give over. If one is wearing a fake watch you will have no intention of say going out to buy a genuine rolex if the turd that's on your wrist is a very good fake. Most people buy expensive watches for the status, if the average Joe can't tell it's a fake then your aspirations or goals of being worshiped for having a rolex on your wrist is achieved. The only thing fakes do is damage the rep of a brand. You spend thousands on finally getting that patek/rolex but every time someone sees it they'll be wondering if it's a Derek trotter special unless you pull out the paper work to prove otherwise.

Well that's my two cents on it anyway.
 
#43 · (Edited by Moderator)
Which is worse? It probably depends on whether the owner of the name and design, considers it worse for their name or their design to be adopted by another. I would have thought putting a name on a dial which is false and then producing an inferior quality product was more damaging than not using that name, but rather using your own name and putting that to an inferior product which looked the same, in your own name. In deed if it really is inferior, it of course may be proved not to be? Passing yourself off in name and identity which could be mistaken and then falling to pieces is probably bad for the real thing. If indeed it is mistaken for that. Using your own name and falling to pieces is probably of less consequence to pure styling?

Is anyone who buys a fake knowingly ever going to be in the market for the real thing?
 
#44 ·
Is anyone who buys a fake knowingly ever going to be in the market for the real thing?
I think it's pure speculation on the authors part, but we have heard on this very forum in the last few days of collectors who own the real thing who have bought fakes for a lark, so who knows? Maybe he should have just contented himself with talking about homages. I think he was on steadier ground there.
 
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